Appraisers' Free Forum

I'll repeat: ALL of my clients require a CR or CG to sign on the left side of the report.

I am not anti-trainee. I have no problem with trainees. Like any profession there are people who want to learn a trade through honesty and hard work. There is no doubt there are many seasoned and damn-good appraisers out there who mentor trainees. That is a huge plus for the profession. And God willing, with what the overall market/economy has been through over the past five years, maybe we will see an increase in quality and "respectability" associated with the appraisal profession. (I don't know if that statement makes sense or not but it sounded good for the moment).

Sooner or later this discussion was going into "what % of supervisiors lie" angle.

I've got a file for those "special" reports, where for some, the gender of who "inspected" did not match the name, etc. My most recent fish was an outfit out of Rockville, MD (100+miles away) came to do a home in Chesapeake. The business card that the appraiser gave the owner was from Roanoke (80 miles away). The only reason I got hold of it was because the property owner decided to use a local lender and another appraisal was ordered. Guess who the a-hole is in this story.

What the motivation behind every business? Make money. Some people take the easiest route possible not thinking of the consequences. We all know that in this business it can be feast or famine.

With the rampant corruption over the last few years, the only profitable way for an appraiser to take on a trainee was

(1) large, sloppy and/or unethical fee shops who only want a runner

(2) by hiring a family member, i.e., they’re not going to be your competition in 2 years.

It’s quite bizarre to look at this business as an outsider.

I'm not so sure it isn't time for some certified residential and certified generals to be moving on along, maybe bumped back down to trainee status.
One of my brothers was an airline captain for 30 years and on his 60th birthday he had a choice: Step down as a Captain with seniority to either first officer or flight engineer chairs (three pilots almost always back then) or retire.

Any one want to volunteer that you are losing your edge?

That is how hard it appears to be for some of you to accept the skill of a trainee, if it happens to be there. The controls will have to be pried from your cold dead hands. It is tough to know when to delegate authority. The moment doesn't come because a mentor notices the passing of an hours threshold by some legislature or appraisal board, for that matter.

OK, a bit rhetorical, just to make a point.

This topic should be moved from the Battlefield to General Appraisal Matters

For me...this is one of the most important topics our industry faces.

Personally, I have NEVER known a client to accept assignments "did not inspect." I've heard of them, but have NEVER run across one myself.

I also have NEVER signed a report "did inspect" when I have not. I attend every inspection...even if it was just a drive-by the wife intended on typing up.

The "did inspect" liars are the worst problem the appraisal business has. These are the greedy number hitters who will send trainees into the field unsupervised, sign "did inspect," hit numbers, ignore conditions, and they've ruined a profession & the economy.

How the state boards are unable to stop them is beyond me. A simple audit would reveal they "did inspect" to the extent humanly impossible. I mean what does it take to stop these scum-bags...an act of GOD?

Mentor, I never claimed to be the sharpest and I must be missing your point.

If my clients require a CG or CR to sign on the left, then why would I send a trainee to "inspect" a property on his/her own?

I don't now much about flying but I would rather have your brother flying my rear-end around the country than a pilot who's on his second flight. I guess there's only two pilots in the cockpit now? Let's say the other says (to the new pilot), "Screw it, Number One, you have the controls and I going to first class for a cocktail; call me when you are ready to land."

Who are you going to fly with?

John "Corky" wrote:I've got a file for those "special" reports, where for some, the gender of who "inspected" did not match the name, etc. My most recent fish was an outfit out of Rockville, MD (100+miles away) came to do a home in Chesapeake. The business card that the appraiser gave the owner was from Roanoke (80 miles away). The only reason I got hold of it was because the property owner decided to use a local lender and another appraisal was ordered. Guess who the a-hole is in this story.

See...that's what I'm ing talking about right there. HVCC...PULLEEZZEE!!!

Until the dumbshit regulators understand that not enforcing laws only emboldens law breakers...this shit will continue unabated.

Make laws--don't enforce them--make more laws. ING brilliant...just ING brilliant

Mentor wrote:I think it is a judgement call. There should be no threshold number, just a competence number. Some technically new appraisers bring quite a bit of experience to the table from related careers. Should a construction engineer be required to be hand held by an appraiser? How about someone that performed professional home inspections for years?

The inspection of the physical home may be fine, but the neighborhood needs to be scanned as well as comps. Why not a threshold on that function and a certification that the trainee was walked around the neighborhood and accompanied to the exterior observation of comparables? Are these observations any less crucial?

It is micromanagement of professional training and development & I don't see how it can come to any good. Someone meeting the threshold set might start thinking he's a big shot

This always confuses me when it happens, but I agree with you 100%. I understand those who are concerned about trainees running around without supervision, but the folks who are doing a good job training aren't the ones letting them off before they are ready. And, those who are doing a lousy job training will have no problem signing did inspect when they didn't.

Mako - I had both residential lending and commercial clients who were fine with my father signing "did not inspect" when I was starting out. He never signed did when he didn't, but as long as he signed, they were fine.

Personally, my reports fell into a few categories for a long time and this is how they were handled: For lending (residential purposes), it all depended on the type of property. I only did res work in the city I grew up in when starting out, and if it was a typical ranch, tri-level or two story house, I was set free fairly early on. (anyone remember typical/cookie cutter assignments?) As I noted, this was working for my father and perhaps I was more diligent because of that. But, at any rate, if it didn't look difficult, I was doing the inspections alone fairly soon. However, until I was licensed, any property that looked difficult involved a joint inspection. For land appraisals, since the clients knew when I was going to be the lead appraiser, they typically sent stuff my way that was relatively straight forward. So, while it took longer to start doing those on my own, I was still able to go inspect them while he was signing as a supervisor. If it was a farm, or other property with significant improvements, it was much longer until I went out alone. I was probably better at doing farms then because we did more, but I was not going by myself to one until I had been at it a long time.

I think this was a great system. I learned a lot from joint inspections. But, I also learned a lot by doing them alone. I had to be more prepared and I had to learn what was really important. There was only one time that comes to mind when I wish he had been along. I completely missed an important feature on a river property and he would have reminded me to check. As it turned out, I had to eat crow and call the owner to see if I could come back out (lesson learned). Of course, I was a CR at the time and hadn't done a joint residential inspection in some time so I can't blame poor training on that one.

Stone wrote:Mako - I had both residential lending and commercial clients who were fine with my father signing "did not inspect" when I was starting out. He never signed did when he didn't, but as long as he signed, they were fine.

Like I say, I've heard of those types of clients, but from the 'old timers,' (I've been at this 19 years).

Then again, I've also heard of 'Ghost Bears,' but as much time as I spend in the woods...I've never seen one.

Mentor wrote:I'm not so sure it isn't time for some certified residential and certified generals to be moving on along, maybe bumped back down to trainee status.
One of my brothers was an airline captain for 30 years and on his 60th birthday he had a choice: Step down as a Captain with seniority to either first officer or flight engineer chairs (three pilots almost always back then) or retire.

Any one want to volunteer that you are losing your edge?

That is how hard it appears to be for some of you to accept the skill of a trainee, if it happens to be there. The controls will have to be pried from your cold dead hands. It is tough to know when to delegate authority. The moment doesn't come because a mentor notices the passing of an hours threshold by some legislature or appraisal board, for that matter.

OK, a bit rhetorical, just to make a point.

Well, I was going to post something right along those lines. See, I'm one of those who answered "never." Well, my mentor did cut me lose a couple of times... I think it was on properties he had previously appraised.

There are two really good reasons the appraiser should accompany the trainee. First, if they are coordinated, two people can finish the inspection more quickly than twice as fast as one.

Secondly, at some point, my mentor was not really teaching me much on inspections, but he was learning new things from me. The same thing happened when I had a trainee. No matter how much you know, you never know enough that you can't learn something new.

As for stepping down when you start to lose your edge... when I started in '93, my mentor said "I was thinking about retiring this year." I said, "Well, how long does it take?" Followed by, "Well, I guess you are going to be working a few more years." I got certified in just over two years, but he didn't retire until '99. I said, "why don't you recertify and I'll put you on a few of my reports each year so you can keep in it." He said: "I don't want to have to spend 14 hours sitting on my butt in a classroom."

Mako wrote:

Stone wrote:Mako - I had both residential lending and commercial clients who were fine with my father signing "did not inspect" when I was starting out. He never signed did when he didn't, but as long as he signed, they were fine.

Like I say, I've heard of those types of clients, but from the 'old timers,' (I've been at this 19 years).

Then again, I've also heard of 'Ghost Bears,' but as much time as I spend in the woods...I've never seen one.

I started doing this in the fall of '99, so I hardly qualify as an "old timer". Most of my residential work was for a couple of LOs at a local bank and had the reports done to Freddie's standards. The other stuff was for established clients that my father had. They may or may not have been as OK with it if they didn't know him, but the bank only cared about the product and that the CG was signing off on the right. Also, any sub-contracting I did for a friend involved her signing on the right and not inspecting after she had gone out with me on a few inspections to make sure we were on the same page. She also did work for a small town bank, but it was a different one in a nearby community.

I don't think these types of clients are quite as mythical as you wish to put forth. And, I've seen it insinuated elsewhere that this type of arrangement really meant the supervisor was signing "did inspect". If that is where you are going, forget it.

Maybe it is a geographical thing, or a large-town/small town thing. Or, maybe you just haven't seen as many clients as you think.

Just checking: Would any of you be willing to support a new federal plan to have states license all new voters and require them to be mentored for 2 years by a "certified D or R prior to their first election on their own? Don't worry. All of you existing voters would be grandfathered in, if you already have a voting track record and can pass a 10 question exam suitable for citizenship candidates.

Back to training or incubating appraisers: The state blesses the existing with dubious standards. They become the official available pool of mentors and we are to feel safe because of a regulation to have the mentored accompanied by the anointed pool of mentors for a prescribed number of hours or years?

One thing leads to another and poof, we have ceded it all to the Feds and/or States. I just can't wait to see what a great effect it will have on quality. It will probably rival licensing, itself.

Stone wrote:I don't think these types of clients are quite as mythical as you wish to put forth. And, I've seen it insinuated elsewhere that this type of arrangement really meant the supervisor was signing "did inspect". If that is where you are going, forget it.

Maybe it is a geographical thing, or a large-town/small town thing. Or, maybe you just haven't seen as many clients as you think.

"If that is where you are going, forget it."

I'm not insinuating you'd come onto the forum & lie...I'm simply going by what I know, and based on my experience your situation is rare. I'm going no further-no less. You've said, "couple LO's at a local bank," and "established clients that your father had," and "small town bank." Those (IMO) are much rarer clients than the norm, and therein lies the answer to our misunderstanding.

I've been @ this nearly 20 years. I've worked for a number of large appraisal outfits, and a couple of smaller ones. I've gone into business with two other appraisers & finally broke off on my own about the time you got started ('98).

My clients have included; banks, M&M (REO) service companies, savings & loans, mortgage firms, employee transfer companies, private parties, attorneys, and marriage dissolution settlements. Everyone required I personally inspect the subject properties.

I have a reputation for an "in your face attitude" when it comes to fraud & those who feel the rules don't apply to them. As a result...others have confided things in me, and experiences they've had as well.

Based on my personal experience, and what I've been told--I can emphatically say--the "did inspect" liars are (IMO) the BIGGEST problem the appraisal industry suffers. They train others in their ways & then unleash them upon those of us who're trying to earn an honest & ethical living. They in turn teach others & it becomes like a corrupt appraiser puppy mill in which liars & number-hitters are rewarded over the honest & ethical among us.

Those who'd risk their licenses & jail time lying about whether they "did inspect," are far more likely to risk their licenses and jail time over other things as well...like inflating property values, ignoring conditions, etc.

Stop them...you stop the need for bailouts.

Mentor wrote:I just can't wait to see what a great effect it will have on quality. It will probably rival licensing, itself.

You'll see a degredation in appraisal quality courtesy of AMC broadcasts fishing for the fastest & the lowest priced appraisers.That alone will be THE BIGGEST reason for further disintegration of appraisal quality.

You'll have appraisers traveling 100's of miles & turning appraisals around in 24-48 hours for what I earned as a trainee nearly 20 years ago. Hell! It's already happening & the HVCC isn't even 6 months old yet!!!

You can't expect a quality product for crap wages...you never could...you never will.

Stone, you grew up in the Twin Cities as I recall. Did your father practice here? In the '80's a rather prominent MAI ran a puppy mill shop and got into trouble when a client or more than likely, Fannie noted the unusual statistic that he was co-signing literally hundreds of appraisal reports some months.

A branch manager of a larrrrge lender told me that around 1985, when I was converting to appraising from my RE brokerage, which I balanced with appraising for a couple years.

The guy is still active, probably quite old. That's my only anecdote.

You can have all the smarts in the world but not an ounce of ethics. Runs in every profession.